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A Military Family Responds to President Bush's Speech

Military Families Speak out

Joyce and Kevin Lucey are members of Military Families Speak Out and Gold Star Families for Peace. Their son, Cpl. Jeffrey Lucey, served in the Marine Reserves in Iraq in 2003. He came home neither safe nor sound. He suffered from Post Traumatic Stress Disorder, and took his own life on June 22, 2004. His name is not in the Department of Defenses' roster of those who died in this war; yet Cpl. Lucey is a casualty of this war as much as any who has lost his or her life on the battlefield. This is their thoughts after watching President speak at Fort Bragg on June 28, 2005.

We have just watched the President's speech and we made notes as he spoke. This is a summary of our reflections some being very personal but very real.

When all this began, despite our doubts and suspicions ,we originally supported the efforts being made to make the world safer and the troops involved .. especially our son.

While the war waged on, we waited for anything from our son to assure us that he and his buddies were safe. We also waited for the for the Weapons of Mass Destruction to be found - after Jeff's death I prayed for them to be found; we waited for the network of terrorism to be found and destroyed and we waited for that link of Iraq to 9/11/01; we waited to find the imminent danger which we were facing.

Were these not the basic premises on which we rushed to war. Were these not the points that this administration went to the country and to the UN and stated that they had proof. Did they not say that they had to react immediately due to the imminent danger to our safety.

I know that this administration has changed the premises for the war like a chameleon - to meet whatever were the fears or concerns existing at that time.

The administration states that they are making the world safer for our children - but my 23 yo son is laying in Island Pond Cemetery despite his returning from the war physically unscathed but destroyed within his spirit. He no longer lives and it was due to this rush to war.

In the speech tonight, we heard nothing of the WMD; we heard nothing of Iraq's link to 911; we heard nothing of Iraq being the center of terrorism except for the illusion to Bin Laden's referral after our country invaded and had killed thousands of innocents.

We heard instead of elections and setting up "free" government in Iraq. Were any of these among the basic premises for the invasion?

Was it not also said that Iraq oil would pay for the reconstruction of the country which we bombed and attacked.

To complete the mission, we need to know what the mission was. None of the original premises for the war was ever realized. Why did our son die? Why did any of our loved ones die?

This administration seems so distant from the reality of both war and the loss. It is so easy for him to say the sacrifice is worth it when he has personally not suffered what 1700+ families have had to endure. What funerals has he attended among all these 1700+? Does he meet only with those families who support his policies?

Will no one ever address the deceptions or ignorance or combination of both which was used to wage this war and kill thousands of innocents and dramatically effect thousands or millions of survivors who probably are suffering from PTSD...and who only have learnt how "dangerous" we have become.

We did all this at the expense of 1700+ lives of our own sons, daughters, mothers, fathers and neighbors...and this is the smallest most conservative number of the numbers which may be true. Will our son be counted - NO.

The administration states that it will send more troops if requested but in reality how many more troops do we have to send.

They speak of the number of Iraqis who died under Saddam but how many innocents have died under our bombs and attacks.

People speak of constitutions. Our constitution - where in it does it enable us to be the caretakers of all other nations. What gives us the right to Impose our values and expectations on others.

We attacked Iraq to remove Saddam - that was one of the subsequent changes in the basic premises but we would ask you - why Saddam? Why Iraq? Why didn't the focus go directly to Al Queda in Afganistan - they were the ones who did 9/11. Isn't North Korea much more dangerous yet I don't see us responding to a very real danger.

The days of soundbytes and glorious words are over. This country must return to its basic once again.

We do support our troops - we want them to come back safely now from Iraq which was such a horrendous mistake. If they are to go in harms way then let us always be sure that war if waged is truly our last resort and is truly deserved.

It is too late for the Jeffrey or the Casey but it is not too late for those who still breathe.

We believe it is abhorrent that he uses the thousands of souls who lost their lives 9/11; we feel that it is horrible that he uses the souls of those that were killed in this war to justify more to die in the future and on a more personal - Jeff stated that this war should have never occurred in Iraq - maybe in Afghanistan but not in Iraq.

Then when this administration submitted their budget proposal for a 5% increase in the VA budget with the recommendation of cuts in services and increase of co-pays, we then realized that this administration truly did not support the troops ... only the war.

This administration created a situation of which they have lost control and now for the wrong reasons he wants to invest more of our people.

For us this "issue" is not a matter of spin or politics. When a family has lost a love one, you pray to find some reason but, given this situation, there was no reason. Both Jeff and his family loved the country and its people but speaking only for myself I have lost faith in my government.

I listened to Senator McCain speaking about if he had a child going to war and I can only say despite my respect for him, I have now lost faith in him also.

I would ask many of the commentators who gave their opinion on tonight's show, whether they themselves have loved ones over on the frontlines.

Joyce & Kevin Lucey


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I am so sorry for your loss. So very sorry.

This is turning into another Vietnam before our eyes and all anyone can do is ask: "What the hell's going on and why isn't anyone doing anything?" Why are the voices of millions being ignored? Is this a democracy or a dictatorship? What can we do as a people to turn the tide? This story was one of the saddest I have heard. I am so sorry for the Lucey's loss.

Mr & mrs Lucey
I can't even imagine what you have gone through and continue to go through. I am so deeply sorry for your loss.I applaud your courage for sharing your story and speaking out against the lies,deception,and greed of the people responsible for this tragedy.
I wish your son could have understood that his actions were brave, honourable, noble, and showed the highest integrity.He is truly a hero of the highest order.

Again and again the call from liberals, conservatives, and anti war activists is that we must support the troops, even if we oppose the war we must support the troops. The facts are our present military are all professional volunteers; they are in the military because they chose that career path.

These present day professional warriors took an oath to preserve and protect the constitution; it is high time they started doing just that and quit hiding behind there uniform and the flag. They have no excuse for not understanding that this war is in violation of the constitution and international law. Anyone who participates in this illegal war is liable for war crimes. The Nuremberg war trials established that the plea of “just carrying out orders

Yes, professionals who are recruited from the Ghettos, not the colleges like Princeton, Stanford, Harvard... hummm... some professionals go onto make money, some go on to place their lives on the line for money to pay for the othe professionals to live in huge homes with cars which cost more than their own homes if they can afford them.

Yep, there are two kind of professionals: ones who are top and ones who serve them.

Where is the information you have that states this "war" is illegal?
Please share it with the world. What officers are speaking out against this war? Name them, and their supposed speeches.

Where do you see troops occupying a country? Cuba, Korea, Afghanistan, Germany, Japan, Iraq, France, Great Britain ??

All these countries (and many others) have US troops in them. Are they all illegally there? Or is it the fact the US troops are fighting insurgents that makes it illegal? Where does any document exist that says that a country (say Iraq) can't have foreign troops (coalition) fighting alongside their own forces? Has Iraq's government told the US or Coalition to get out ?

When you have answers to these questions, please post them or shut up.

To lose your son in this senseless waste of a war is a crime. Bush owes him and the others senselessly lost an explanation for putting Americans in harms way in order to create wealth for those close to him. There is momentum now to build on for him and others responsible for your son's death to be held accountable in the highest form possible in this country, in order for America to return to a proud and respected country.

I wanted to tell you both, one of my grandfather's served in the Army in WWII and then then the Navy in Korea. And, I believe he had a pension from his service, maybe retirement. I am not sure. But, I can tell you that he had PTSD before there was such a diagnosis. And, my grandmother paid dearly to protect her children from him.

They were devout Catholics and went to a Priest for Marriage Counseling. Yet, my grandmother wanted a divorce. His rages and temperment was out of control and there were not counselors for those things in the fifties.

I know that my grandparents were in love with each other. That is evident from photos and family stories. But, when my grandmother wanted to leave him, after have several kids together, he held a gun to himself and killed himself in front of her on the way home from the Catholic Counseling with the Priest.

That happened the week of my mother's ninth birthday. And, I can tell you that has effected myself, my siblings, my cousins, my mother's siblings, their cousins. That pain has actually not ended and that occured in the fifities.

When I was a kid, I had to constantly wonder if I would ever want to commit suicide. I had to test myself over and over to find out if I was going to break down. Well, I did, many times. I almost died in several car accidents. But something, like GOD, kept me from ever going over the edge. Then, in college, I had two suicidal friends. One lived and one jumped over a cliff. Well, long story short, I realized that I had something within me that was driving me to do things and that she lost her will to live. There was a difference.

My grandfather who lived used to tell, "I do something every day to keep donig some thing. That keeps me young." He meant (he was in his seventies), that gave him a point to live. Myself, I always knew that my other grandfather died and that his death was causing me to live.

I re-experienced that when one of my closest friends jumped off the cliff. I feel that she could not talk about her pain, her dreams, her visions, her molestations and rapes. She could not release those wounds and heal them. Yet, there were dozens of our friends at her funeral. She gave us all a message about what would happen if we shut down and internalized our own dreads and fears. I feel like she was my "personal jesus": she died so that I might find the reason that I was still living.

Yes, I did feel exactly that. I felt that all the things she told me, apparently I was closer to her than others, that all that was meant for me to know how much pain another person can internalize. At the times she told me that she wanted to die, I could not understand. She had a great life on the outside. I listened yet I could not understand. After her death, I did a lot of meditation and prayer. It was like she became a ghost for me. I began to see everything in a different light. I began to understand.

That understanding made me understand others. Her PTSD of being molested and raped made me come to understand how our memories haunt us and control our emotions. It made me understand the emotions my own grandfather had when he took his own life. I began to see why people are homeless, apathetic, walking like the dead in the body.

Our world is full of zombies--people in emotional and mental agony, pain, torture and torturing others who love them. We have so much work on this planet that it makes the war in Iraq pale in the Bigger Yet Unacknowldged picture. That war is a pimple compared to the wars and terrors going on and that have been going on. There is so much more terror big and small. None of that erases the fact that the terror being waged by the elite in control of the big guns are truly terrorizing Iraq; but... they are terrorizing the world, have been and will continue until we heal the wounds that are blinding us.

Sometimes we lose the ones we love the most: that pain can awaken us at the soul's core. We can begin to ask the depths of our spirit what is the most important thing that we are living for. Why are we here? Is it to watch television for hours a day? Or, is there a deeper meaning? Is it about a job or is it about our relationships with community?

Our world can change when we all work together. First, we all have to learn how to love ourselves and live with others. And, we can do that when we all know the difference between causing others pain and not. Share your pain; it will wake up many people who feel guilt, shame, blame. Many people are in fear of their feelings. That fear will drive them to isolate and become over-sensitive or under-sensitive. Our culture has trained us to be in control of our emotions and that is our downfall. We need to feel the anger, the grief, the dread, fear, even terror locked inside. We all need to be given sacred--safe space--space for our souls wounds to release. I mean as a culture, as groups, as individuals. We need to stop this idea that we are atomic families: we are alone with our head trips. B.S. - We are not alone!

We live in a world of living creatures, birds singing and squaking when their baby birds are captured by the neighbor's cat. Feelings are the communication of nature. And, we are not above nature. We need to get back to being human, feeling human. I do not justify anyone's death/suicide but when I sought the reasons, I felt that the only reasons are that we all need to commune/icate at deeper and deeper levels of our existance. We need to cross the bridge between self and other. We all need to feel that we are not aliens, alone, isolated. And, it seems that every suicide has a message, one they cannot state in words yet their emotions are giving us signals. We may not wake up to those communications until it is too late. But the messages are still alive, the intentions are still in the ethers and we do feel them.

Feel them and share them.

Take some Paxil, and get off your soap box. If people have PTSD, they need to get help from certified Doctors. If they don't get that help, or the family doesn't force them to get help, then that is that individual's right.

Don't blame war/conflict/gangs/bad home life for any person's suicide. Make individuals have some responsibility for their actions or inactions. How many people everyday want to kill themselves? Probably millions, but only a few do it. Those few people needed help, not the millions that didn't do it.

"if Jimmy jumps off a bridge......"

I find this post very offensive.

You obviously have never lived with anyone that has PTSD. You don't just take a pill and get over it. You've never laid beside a GI who 35+ years later still fights a battle in his sleep. Who still wonders why the wounded GI was shot out of his arms and killed, but you lived.

I have so I know first hand what PTSD does to a person.

As I write this I recall a memory of some 40+ years ago. A teacher that "snapped" one day. In front of the whole class he started fighting that war all over again. I was one of those students. He had a nervous break-down. Do you suppose you had a pill for him too?

Until you know your facts please do not make posts like this again.

My dad fought in a little battle on the front lines called Korea for 3 years. I lived with him after that for 19 years in the same house. There was plenty of PTSD to go around. I sent him to VA specialists to get him back on track, I sent him to counselors to learn how to get his feelings under control.

Those people that "snapped" needed medical attention and didn't get it. Did you force your GI to get help that is available? Did you make him take anti-depressant medication?

OR, did you just shut up and let him have his nervous breakdown?
That's why your pissed, because you let it happen.

Don't come whining about your GI's problems when you could have been the person to get him the help he needed.

Your last comment says it all on how uninformed you really are. You a Tom Cruise wannabe by any chance?

My GI has been taking anti-depressants for more years than I care to remember. And if you think a pill can wipe out the nightmares, you are dead wrong.

your posts sound like you should be on a tranquilizer.

So then, the soldiers in WWII and Korea (who had much, much less help back home from the VA) didn't have nightmares also ?? Only your GI has nightmares? The shock of seeing 5,650 dead friends in ONE DAY in the Pacific campaign or 3,500 dead in 8 hours at the Battle of the Bulge doesn't qualify to give someone nightmares?

Your GI needs to face his nightmares, and get back to doing what he was doing before the battle(s) (if he was in battle) that gave him the nightmares.

What about the 12-18 MILLION Russians, the 2 MILLION Germans, the untold hundreds of thousands of Japanese ? Do you think they don't have nightmares? Just because they were/are our enemies? Did ALL of them just give up? NO.

Suck it up, get whatever help or medication can be found and move on with your life and help your GI move past the nightmares.

Sounds like another Democrat whose candidate wasn't elected. Soldiers sign up voluntarily.
Soldiers follow orders of the Commander in Chief.
Soldiers go to War.
Soldiers die believing they helped to keep secure the freedoms of the United States.
They die so that losers like you have the freedom to make such an idiotic post on this weblog.
They die so that losers like you have the ability to freely collect welfare, and go to school, and live in a trailer park, and have a minimum wage job.

Without our voluntary Armed Forces, you might have to actually work for a living. So don't knock too loudly, someone might hear you.

Since Iraq is now known to be free of WMDs, maybe we can say "mission accomplished" and set a timetable for withdrawal.

Not being a citizen of your country, although you are in my thoughts constantly, The horror I am seeing at the hands of what has become the worlds most horrific leader!
Yes I am sorry so many fell for the lies right at the beginning, While I ate my sandwich on lie bread , as was suggested in another post, I prayed with all my might that the 500 enlisted ( troops)citizens to stand up and turn their backs on this crule human.

Yes July 4th is comming and everyone was asked to fly the flag, please do it, and fly it upside down, so more innocent apple pie americans will get the message.

If a people stands in real need of some great reform, then the creator is with those people, and it will succeed.


I too, am sorry for your loss.

However, being from a military family; there is no way that your son, or any other military person was unaware when he or she signed up that WAR was something that COULD occur. Further, when he or she signed up, they were made aware of the fact that the President of The United States is the Commander in Chief of the Armed Forces. That doesn't mean that the soldiers can pick and choose what orders to follow, or where their deployment will be.

Where are the actual Military Personnel serving in Iraq or Afghanistan spouting this anti-Bush rhetoric? Why do servicemen by the thousands continue to ask for another tour, and re-up time and again?

To all the families of those killed or injured in this War: Your children, mothers, fathers, aunts and uncles, brothers and sisters were doing the job they signed up for, and losses are inevitable in any war or conflict.

As for this being another "Vietnam" : 58,000+ killed or dead in Vietnam, 1,750+ killed or dead in Iraq. Get the facts right, or just don't speak.

Germany didn't attack us in WWII, but we fought and lost hundreds of thousands of Men and Women so that Europe would be free; because that is what was required to keep the fighting and death off American shores. How many attacks on American Bases, Embassies, or America itself has happened since the US began this War On Terror?

NONE, NOT ONE. Do you know why? Because the terrorists realize that any further attacks will be the last they ever do.

Where were you when the USS COLE was bombed and good sailors were killed? Where where you when President Clinton bombed the hell out of Serbia? Where were you when several Presidents attempted to kill Khadafi by bombing his country?

You people need open your eyes to the very real world we live in, and realize that unless force is met with overwhelming force, then the cat and mouse game of killing civilians and hiding in a foreign land will continue.

Thank you for letting me have my say,as is my right as an American Citizen. Try having this conversation or blog in the Middle East, and listen for the knock at the door.

".....because that is what was required to keep the fighting and death off American shores. How many attacks on American Bases, Embassies, or America itself has happened since the US began this War On Terror?"

You can't be as stupid as all that. No wonder Bush has no respect for the military.

Was that a comment? Simply repeating my comments?

Please explain how or why you disagree with my comments, and try to bring something that shows you aren't just a Democrat in Dumbass Clothing.

If the U.S. is attacked again, what would your reaction be? Would it be...

1. Oh, you know what, I guess I was wrong. The liberals and the war critics were right after all.

Or would it be...

2. Kill! Kill! Kill them all! Revenge! Revenge! Revenge!

I don't know you from Adam, but I'm guessing that your response would be closer to #2, so please don't use the "America is safer now" argument unless you have the intellectual courage to stand behind it.

My response would be, "damn, I can't believe they did that again"..I hope they got Marc and his family, instead of some patriotic citizens. Now, let's nuke them back to the stone age.

So, yes, you are correct. Good little liberalcrat!!

Every time I call somebody on their logic, they always end up saying something about nuking the Middle East into the Stone Age. Maybe we could have an honest debate in this country if more people on your side of the issue just came out and said what they really mean.

If any other attacks come, I hope you and your family are nowhere near them.


I'm really not sure if I would have responded as well as you, kudos for your sanity and patience.

It was our good friend Rumsfeld, who, when there was a difficulty blasting the Al Quaeda remnants out of their caves in Afghanistan, suggested the US use "nukes" to get them...

There was a rapid back-pedal on that suggestion, but Rummie initially thought it a good idea. Yup, nukes in the area of Pakistan and India who sit on a hair trigger already..

Wishing someone dead because they don't agree with you reminds me of arguing with my sister when I was about 6 years old.

I didn't wish him dead...You should learn to read.
I said that if another attack were to occur, it would be better that he and his get killed rather than some Patriotic Americans. However, any Patriotic American would tell you that the losercrats are worth protecting at any cost.

That's not wishing anyone would die, only a choice.

Go back to your crayons, Shafik.

War hurts your own citizens... My brother's did not die in the military but his life was taken from him...he has been disabled for 30 years.
The lack of compassion to say that we have to meet force with overwhelming force in Iraq means: you haven't been paying attention.
Iraq never attacked us...We shocked and awed a nation that did not ever cause us any harm. So, by your theory the insurgents should attack us with greater force is justifiable.

Our leaders made a big mistake...and put our troops in a very bad situation... Our country doesn't know what to do to rectify this horrid mess except hope the Iraqis can bail them out now.

Um, excuse me, "The Germans didn't attack us in WWII"?, no but the Japanese did. Have you forgotten Perl Harbor? Yes WWII was justified to defend our country and yes we were threaten. Hitler had every intention of taking over the world. He definately had an agenda and it was justified for us to ban "together" with "other nations" to fight communism.
Terriosm is a different ball game and Saddam Hussien did not have any such agenda. There is "no evidence" of any link between al Qaida and Osma Bin Laden, who still remains a free man. There were no WMD's, and we were "lied" to by the "President of the United States" who continues to openly lie in public and on national television.

We are losing the War on Terroism because our attention is not focused on fighting the terroist where they can harm us, "here" in the "US", but instead it is focused on a war in Iraqi that can not be justifed. Terroist don't have a country, terroist don't have an address, you can't knock on thier door, or invade thier terrority because they are everywhere. Here in the US and abroad. Their are no front lines in the war on terroism! Meanwhile, screening at Airports is still not adequate, we just cut border security by 90%, and 200,000 plus people are dead for a war that can not be justified and that has taken our attention of the "Real War on Terrorism" the war that can only be fought on US soil by protecting our borders, our cities, and our transportation systems from terrorists. And by making sure another 9/11 never happens on US soil.

Terrorism is not something you can have a war on. It is a method of warfare. The US uses it consistently. If you do not think the Iraqi people were terrorized before our attack and during it and even now, you are dreaming. How is it that only Americans can be terrorized?

As for Hitler -- he did not spring up full blown out of nowhere. There is no reason that there had to be a WWII if the world had stopped him first. There is a similarity with our "dear leader" here too unfortunately.

Will we end the madness now or will be pay an even dearer price?

Hitler was absolutely convinced he had the whole story right. He was so shallow he could talk himself into just about anything. Also a drug addict. Hmmm!

He was convinced that the western world would oppose his idea for them, but in the long run, they would come to appreciate a racist, fascist regime. He thought it would take a few years.

He was also convinced that regime change would take place if the military could kill all the "terrorists" in occupied territories.

He surrounded himself with the a gang that couldn't shoot straight: Goering, Himmler, Heydrich, Goebbels, von Papen...

Deja vu all over again!

Yup, gotta' obey the orders. Yup, gotta' fight when ordered. However, some blockheaded, knee-jerk patriots (with a small "p") cannot admit the obvious:

The attack on the Cole, 9/11, WMD, Somalia, Nukes.. you name it.. had nothing to do with Iraq. NOTHING! NADA! NIL!

The "gang that can't shoot straight" didn't take the time to plan an occupation strategy, maybe because all those chickens (Cheney, Bush, Wolfewitz, Kristol..all the right-wing talking heads) never faced, ran away from, what they so callously and with indifference laid upon our military.

ONLY the US HOUSE can declare war, fool! Bush, in his rush to find a WMD didn't think for a minute about the people whose lives would end. Bush and co. LIED to the Congress... LIED... get it, yet, pal? LIED in order to start a WAR! This, pal.. is a high crime and a misdemeanor. For that offense a sitting President should be tried before the Senate.

Instead, you right wing, myopic, ignorant and foolish stumblebums want to keep the insanity going. Are you so stupid that you don't see that this group of miscreants bouncing off the walls of the White House toss you a few "patriotic" slogans and you drool...?

The Big problem with the Right Wingnuts is that they are Insecure. We have to have compassion in action for them. It is like a big baby reaching for a machine gun. You don't let babies caress, point, and shoot nice metalic objects which can kill people.

The Right Wingnuts either had too much attention or not enough, like they used to say about Gay people in the seventies. Either those Wingnuts were not given enough constuctive criticism or it was too much. Well, that is Wingnut logic!

Truly, though, the issues that they have are sexual suppression, oppression, depression, and compression. Notice that even their Wingnut Politicians look like they are holding fatties in their diapers and are not regular. Just look at all that squinting and facial squeezing. They really need to take a dump or a leak and they cannot touch that thingy. They need someone like a baby sitter or nanny--wife--to do it for them.

That machine gun thing they have replaces their thingy envy and they feel safer since they do not have to feel vulnerable. They can shoot from a distance and not get close enough to feel anything but the after buzzz.

Some cling onto the Bible because that is what seems Right since mommy told 'em that a long time ago. Because of all that facial grimmacing, muscular tension, they could not concentrate in school well so some of the rich ones had to buy papers from smarter students or get them from their fraternity brothers' storage of cheat sheets. Basically, they are anal-rententive causing mental composting.

And, that must be stressfilled. Forgive them they know not what they do: just take away that machine gun.

Why hasn't the US Congress acted on these so called illegal activities, then? Because they aren't illegal.

The military will continue to follow legal orders from the command staff, and if they don't; they will be put in the brig, or jail. That's the way it's been, and always will be. The US Troops know what they are doing is the right thing for a safer world. What you left-wing nut jobs can't see that your infantile rants are repeated around the world, and that hurts our troops, both in body and mind.

Oh...did you hear? June recruitment for the Army is over it's goal.
Must be a pain to know that Red-Blooded American men and women actually care about protecting the US instead of listening to your insipid rhetoric and gas-bag theories.

With about 5,000 recruits entering boot camp in May, the Army total was about 75 percent of the 6,700 new soldiers it had set as a target. That 6,700 figure was made the goal early last month, the newspaper said, lowering goals from the earlier number of 8,050 recruits.

And Junes numbers are even more dismal. Despite todays hype that they exceed recruitment. Again the goal was lowered to 5,650 and they exceeded that number of recuits by 500 or 6,150. Which is still 1,900 short of the original May recruiting goal.

I've also heard, the UNVERIFIED rumor that the goal was reached because many teen-agers had deferments until after graduation.

Now if I could please encouage all right-wingers to do their homework before they write it would make the world much easier for all readers. And after you do your homework report the facts, not the cover ups. Although I do believe cover-up could be the republican motto.

And I'll end with saying IMPEACH prince stupid and all his neo-cons.

Where did you get your numbers? Your mom giving them to you from Randi Rhode's radio rant doesn't count. What verifiable information do you base your statement(s) on ??

Do your own homework! I'll help you.

First you go to a web browser. I used Google.
type in the words.

When you're all done there. Haul out todays newspapers that are all touting what the right wing media released about reaching June quota. And do your own damn math or refer back to post.

My next suggestion is to watch your papers next month when they oops, make there corrections and actually fell short by 500. There has never been an administrations that had to retract so many statistics. They make the statistics sound good, spread them all over the airwaves and frontpages. Then those of surf buffs find the retractions that were aired once in the middle of the night and printed on page 99, section Z.

And have a nice day!

Again, no proof of any numbers that are verifiable.
Print the link for us to see.
Print verifiable information (that means 2 or more independent sources).

If this is all over the media, it shouldn't be too hard to find. Nobody was disputing May's numbers, by the way. Only that June was over.

Read this, liberal loonies, if you can stand the truth for a change instead of Randi Rhode's Rants, and Franken's foolishness.

By Thomas Patrick Carroll | May 17, 2005

On 1 May, just days before Britain’s national election, The Sunday Times obtained and published a secret government memo on the ousting of Saddam.[i] Public reaction was appallingly unsophisticated (much of it, anyway) and undoubtedly contributed to Labour’s lackluster performance at the polls.[ii] Because of the party’s poor showing, Prime Minister Tony Blair may now be forced to step aside, most likely in favor of Gordon Brown.

There is a sad irony in all of this. If more British voters (and the opinion makers who influenced them) had made a genuine effort to understand the significance of that memo, the elections would likely have gone in precisely the opposite direction and Blair would now be sitting on an even larger majority than he enjoyed before.

The document in question, classified SECRET – UK EYES ONLY, was a record of a meeting between Blair and his senior advisors. The topic was what to do about Saddam. The memo was dated 23 July 2002, well before the first coalition bombs struck Baghdad on 20 March of the following year.

The memo said that among Washington policymakers, “[m]ilitary action was now seen as inevitable. Bush wanted to remove Saddam, through military action, justified by the conjunction of terrorism and WMD. But the intelligence and facts were being fixed around the policy.

Just so YOU get your facts straight... the 1700 plus people killed so far.. died within 24 hours of being wounded or hit. If a soldier gets hit and dies after 24 hours, the number and name fall into a different category.

Since the conflict in Viet Nam took about 15 years to really play out, the death toll from Iraq is probably on track to match that other glorious endeavor in SE Asia.

And, blockhead.. when the US declared WAR on Japan post Pearl Harbor, Hitler declared WAR on the US.

Yeah, when that other chicken, Ronald Reagan (made films during WWII, but dreamt he was in combat) bombed Libya, all they managed to do was kill some janitors and Khadaffi's daughter.

Only when the Serbs declared they would every last Muslim in Kosovo (Ethnic Cleansing) did the US/Clinton go after the Serbs. All we heard from the right wingnuts was that they opposed "nation-building". You right wing crazies can't get your stories straight.

I want to see the right wing fundamentalist bin Laden in court and tried for crimes against humanity.

By the way, the US is postponing Saddam's trial in the hope that he will die first. The right wingnuts don't want Saddam to spill the beans about how we armed him with everything he wanted including WMD's/ gas during the 1980's.

Saddam had 24 years to kill and maim the 300,000 Iraqi's; at this rate Bush will catch up to that number in no time.

Well, let's do some math then, Mr. Wizard.

1,750 US troops dead in 2 years in Iraq.
58,000 US troops dead in 15 years in Vietnam.

1,750 / 2 = 875 US Troop deaths per year in Iraq.
875 x 15 years = 13,125 projected troop deaths in Iraq over 15 years.

58,000 / 15 = 3,866 US Troop deaths per year in Vietnam.

Try staying away from Math,'s obviously not your best subject.

Anonymous; How many troop deaths will it take for you to be happy, In my view every one of the dead is too many,i'm surprised you find this a topic worth ridicule.

Not one more than required to complete the job; whatever that number ends up.

They signed up, they got the bonus for signing, they got the education benefits, they agreed to a contract.

It would be nice to not have 1 more death or injury, but you have to be realistic. We ARE IN A WAR; deaths and injuries are part of WAR.

Nobody is riduculing the deaths, only Mr. Lindsay's lies and unfortunate loss of math skills.

The Obvious is not Obvious

When a person signs into the military, as I did, s/he expects to be part of a team of Americans who are Living in the Freedom, Liberty, and Justince for All. Yet, when s/he discovers s/he is not seeing That Reality from behind that really awesome and exciting machine gun, s/he is stuck in the reality that Pol-i-tics is the Real Game, the Real War s/he is fighting.

If s/he is smart, like me, s/he gets recruited into Officer School, and is treated like a prince/ess and s/he knows that if s/he quits, s/he is not going to be All That in the Real civilian World. So, it is a temptation to allow one's self to feel the obligation of being respected in the Big Lie.

And, if s/he is really smart, like me, s/he gets opportunities to for Security Clearance for which if s/he signs, what s/he knows becomes a Bigger Lie because s/he has to keep all those Lies inside.

And, since you are so much smarter than me to see the Obvious, then your Clearance must be so High that We cannot See You Playing the Big Liar Game.

God Bless You.

This PC non-word is most annoying and does nothing to enhance your message, but serves only to make it clumsy to read. Would you consider using something else in future posts?

Bitterness is detected...did you not get a clearance because of some hormone problem or something? What a completely insane rant.

I found myself getting very upset as I read your ignorant post. Where do I start? First of all, you brainwashed dumb ass, Iraq did not attack us and was not in cahoots with 9/11 perpetrators. Read the 9/11 Commissions whitewash and get the facts right, or just don't speak. Second, Your psuedo-reasoning regarding future attack deterrent because "any further attacks will be the last they ever do". You brain dead idiot! Have you noticed that 9/11 was pepetrated by suicidal maniacs whose acts of mass murder were the "last they ever did"? Have you noticed that the insurgents who are, according to retired Gen. Odom, attracted to Iraq as a rallying point against the US occupation use suicide bombers to attack their targets, both military and civilian? And of course, when you have no other logic to back up your argument, resort to bringing up past military actions from past presidents. Let me see, isn't this part of the "don't look at the man behind the curtain" tactics?

You people need to open your eyes and listen to experts like Gen. Odom who makes a strong case that the war in Iraq has NOTHING to do with national security, except make it worse by inflaming tensions in the region. They didn't attack us, they didn't have WMD, and they weren't part of the 9/11 conspiracy. Unfortunately, unless overwhelming force is used to pull your head out of your ass, you will continue to spout shit out of your mouth.

And don't insult the families of those who have suffered losses in this war, whether they be U.S. or Iraqis, with your patronizing remarks that amount to "shit happens". This war was based on lies which have been fully and completely exposed for all to see, and was not only unnecessary, but counterproductive to our interests. For historical exhibit "A", see Vietnam war. Instead of isolating Bin Laden and his ilk, we have given them a massive recruiting tool. Make no mistake about it, we have Bush and his supporters to thank for the next generation of terrorists that are willing to sacrifice their lives to attack us.

How many Moron/Left Wingers will this blog support before their leaders Randi Rhodes and Frankenass come to the rescue.

Please point out these speeches by Gen. Odom for us to read.
Then; Read the following statements (assuming you can move your self-righteous ass to the monitor) with the extremely short-sight you obviously possess.

"THERE IS NO EVIDENCE that Saddam Hussein was connected in any way to al Qaeda."
So declared CNN Anchor Carol Costello in an interview yesterday with Representative Robin Hayes (no relation) from North Carolina.
Hayes politely challenged her claim. "Ma'am, I'm sorry, but you're mistaken. There's evidence everywhere. We get access to it. Unfortunately, others don't."
CNN played the exchange throughout the day. At one point, anchor Daryn Kagan even seemed to correct Rep. Hayes after replaying the clip. "And according to the record, the 9/11 Commission in its final report found no connection between al Qaeda and Saddam Hussein."
The CNN claims are wrong. Not a matter of nuance. Not a matter of interpretation. Just plain incorrect. They are so mistaken, in fact, that viewers should demand an on-air correction.
But such claims are, sadly, representative of the broad media misunderstanding of the relationship between Iraq and al Qaeda. Richard Cohen, columnist for the Washington Post, regularly chides the Bush administration for presenting what he calls fabricated or "fictive" links between Iraq and al Qaeda. The editor of the Los Angeles Times scolded the Bush administration for perpetuating the "myth" of such links. "Sixty Minutes" anchor Lesley Stahl put it bluntly: "There was no connection."
Conveniently, such analyses ignore statements like this one from Thomas Kean, chairman of the 9/11 Commission. "There was no question in our minds that there was a relationship between Iraq and al Qaeda." Hard to believe reporters just missed it--he made

the comments at the press conference held to release the commission's final report. And that report detailed several "friendly contacts" between Iraq and al Qaeda, and concluded only that there was no proof of Iraqi involvement in al Qaeda terrorist attacks against American interests. Details, details.
There have been several recent developments. One month ago, Jordan's King Abdullah explained to the Arabic-language newspaper al Hayat that his government had tried before the Iraq war to extradite Abu Musab al Zarqawi from Iraq. "We had information that he entered Iraq from a neighboring country, where he lived and what he was doing. We informed the Iraqi authorities about all this detailed information we had, but they didn't respond." He added: "Since Zarqawi entered Iraq before the fall of the former regime we have been trying to have him deported back to Jordan for trial, but our efforts were in vain."
One week later, former Iraqi Prime Minister Iyad Allawi told the same newspaper that the new Iraqi government is in possession of documents showing that Ayman al Zawahiri, bin Laden's top deputy, and Zarqawi both entered Iraq in September 1999. (If the documents are authentic, they suggest that Zarqawi may have plotted the Jordanian Millennium attacks from Iraq.)
Beyond what people are saying about the Iraq-al Qaeda connection, there is the evidence. In 1992 the Iraqi Intelligence services compiled a list of its assets. On page 14 of the document, marked "Top Secret" and dated March 28, 1992, is the name of Osama bin Laden, who is reported to have a "good relationship" with the Iraqi intelligence section in Syria. The Defense Intelligence Agency has possession of the document and has assessed that it is accurate. In 1993, Saddam Hussein and bin Laden reached an "understanding" that Islamic radicals would refrain from attacking the Iraqi regime in exchange for unspecified assistance, including weapons development. This understanding, which was included in the Clinton administration's indictment of bin Laden in the spring of 1998, has been corroborated by numerous Iraqis and al Qaeda terrorists now in U.S. custody.
In 1994, Faruq Hijazi, then deputy director of Iraqi Intelligence, met face-to-face with bin Laden. Bin Laden requested anti-ship limpet mines and training camps in Iraq. Hijazi has detailed the meeting in a custodial interview with U.S. interrogators. In 1995, according to internal Iraqi intelligence documents first reported by the New York Times on June 25, 2004, a "former director of operations for Iraqi Intelligence Directorate 4 met with Mr. bin Laden on Feb. 19."
When bin Laden left Sudan in 1996, the document states, Iraqi intelligence sought "other channels through which to handle the relationship, in light of his current location." That same year, Hussein agreed to a request from bin Laden to broadcast anti-Saudi propaganda on Iraqi state television.
In 1997, al Qaeda sent an emissary with the nom de guerre Abdullah al Iraqi to Iraq for training on weapons of mass destruction. Colin Powell cited this evidence in his presentation at the UN on February 5, 2003. The Senate Intelligence Committee has concluded that Powell's presentation on Iraq and terrorism was "reasonable."
In 1998, according to documents unearthed in Iraq's Intelligence headquarters in April 2003, al Qaeda sent a "trusted confidante" of bin Laden to Baghdad for 16 days of meetings beginning March 5. Iraqi intelligence paid for his stay in Room 414 of the Mansur al Melia hotel and expressed hope that the envoy would serve as the liaison between Iraqi intelligence and bin Laden. The DIA has assessed those documents as authentic.
In 1999, a CIA Counterterrorism Center analysis reported on April 13 that four intelligence reports indicate Saddam Hussein has given bin Laden a standing offer of safe haven in Iraq. The CTC report is included in the Senate Intelligence Committee's review on prewar intelligence.
In 2000, Saudi Arabia went on kingdom-wide alert after learning that Iraq had agreed to help al Qaeda attack U.S. and British interests on the peninsula.
In 2001, satellite images show large numbers of al Qaeda terrorists displaced after the war in Afghanistan relocating to camps in northern Iraq financed, in part, by the Hussein regime.
In 2002, a report from the National Security Agency in October reveals that Iraq agreed to provide safe haven, financing and weapons to al Qaeda members relocating in northern Iraq.
In 2003, on February 14, the Philippine government ousted Hisham Hussein, the second secretary of the Iraqi embassy in Manila, for his involvement in al Qaeda-related terrorist activites. Andrea Domingo, head of Immigration for the Philippine government, told reporters that "studying the movements and activities" of Iraqi intelligence assets in the country, including radical Islamists, revealed an "established network" of terrorists headed by Hussein.


"I will be voting to give the President of the United States the authority to use force-- if necessary-- to disarm Saddam Hussein because I believe that a deadly arsenal of weapons of mass destruction in his hands is a real and grave threat to our security." Sen. John F. Kerry (D, MA), Oct. 9, 2002

"Without question, we need to disarm Saddam Hussein. He is a brutal, murderous dictator, leading an oppressive regime . He presents a particularly grievous threat because he is so consistently prone to miscalculation ... And now he is miscalculating America's response to his continued deceit and his consistent grasp for weapons of mass destruction So the threat of Saddam Hussein with weapons of mass destruction is real ..." Sen. John F. Kerry (D, MA), Jan.23.2003

Kerry Said Saddam Hussein’s WMD

Don't use quotes based on people's thoughts before they found out the WMD thing was an enormous lie. The fact that we were totally misled does change the parameters somewhat.

And forget Kean...I can't find his quote which if I remember correctly is only partially stated here...He did say more didn't he? How like a short sighted republican to spin things to his liking. You're a lot like Bush.

But how about what Bush said himself. He stated that there was no connection. How do you account for that little anomaly. Or has it conveniently disappeared from your memory bank.

Who's the moron exactly. You who believes everything that Bush does is perfect or someone who challenges the party line?

Well, as you said "I can't find his quote" : can you find Pres. Bush's quote and link ? No...didn't think so.

Please provide information, not your own moronic opinions. Have facts, figures, links, verifiable information.

I forgot, sorry...your man lost the election. You're still in a state of denial.

If some of the quote/article is missing, please provide the details, not your "guesses" and "maybes"

I am lifting my morning cup of coffee to you in a toast...well said.

What those that rant and rave like Cheney do not realize is that For those of us that lived through Viet Nam we are learning once again just how dishonest our Pres. is and has been regarding taking our young people in the military to war. All of us do remember though how the last election process demonstrated so many are not totally healed from being in Viet Nam and probably never will be. Why do you think so many in Viet Nam ended up on drugs (while there). It was all so pointless, it was all so dishonest. That the numbers killed in action do not match has no bearing to your argument. This time our troops are being totally supported. You tell me how in the hell sending our young people to Iraq without proper equipment is supporting our troops. The Cheney CONS actually thought flowers would be there instead of bullets. Could that be because they did not listen, could that be because they had no experience in actual war? When as all of them Bush and his neo-CONS got out of going to Viet Nam (which thousands did) truly knowing what war is like is missing in their souls. I have never been there either, but when you TRULY listen and read opinions of those that have been there it is something they do not wish again.

I do have family in the military that have gone to the Middle East and how dare this group in D.C. take their lives and dedication so lightly. How dare they.

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