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Torture Supporter Dershowitz Says Not to Prosecute Bush, Cheney, et alia


By davidswanson - Posted on 12 September 2008

By David Swanson

Here's an interesting self-defense with a gloss of principle and detatchment.

Indictments Are Not The Best Revenge
By ALAN M. DERSHOWITZ, Wall Street Journal
September 12, 2008
ORIGINAL HERE

Dershowitz or whoever wrote the headline begins with the pretense that wanting to deter future crimes is not the motivation of those of us pushing for the prosecution of Bush and Cheney, that we simply must be as primitive and barbaric as the author and be seeking revenge -- partisan revenge to be precise, even though those pushing for indictment of Bush were not fans of Clinton either and in some cases pushed for his indictment as well.

I don't agree with a lot of the Bush administration's policies in the war on terror,

You agree that there is such a thing, and that's enough.

and I plan to vote for Barack Obama and Joe Biden in November.

What is the relevance of that? Bush and Cheney are not candidates in this election.

But during a recent campaign rally Mr. Biden gave a wrong-headed, if well-intentioned, answer when asked whether he would "pursue the violations that have been made against our Constitution by the present administration?" This is how he responded: "We will not be stopped from pursuing any criminal offense that's occurred."

Oh, relax! If he's pretending as you do to be unaware that criminal offenses have occurred then you have very little to worry about and can safely recommend inaction and count on them to "take your advice." Biden, in fact, swore on a stack of bibles on Fox News the very next day that he didn't mean anything by it and had no plans to prosecute anybody.

After praising Democratically controlled congressional committees for investigating these matters -- "collecting data, subpoenaing records . . . building a file" -- Mr. Biden continued: "If there has been a basis upon which you can pursue someone for a criminal violation, they will be pursued -not out of vengeance, not out of retribution, [but] out of the need to preserve the notion that no one, no attorney general, no president -- no one is above the law."

If he had meant it that would have been exactly right -- or half right. Exactly right would have been to demand immediate impeachment and prosecution and drop the pretense that some sort of doubt can exist whether crimes have been committed.

Mr. Biden's comments echoed what Mr. Obama had said in April when he pledged that, if elected, he would have his attorney general investigate the actions of his predecessor to distinguish between possible "genuine crimes" and "really bad policies." Mr. Obama moderated his statement by stating that he would not want his first term "consumed by what was perceived on the part of Republicans as a partisan witch hunt," because his administration would have many other problems "we've got to solve."

So, you are safe, or as safe as anyone can be in a republic shifting to an empire.

No reasonable person can disagree with the important principle underlying these statements by the democratic nominees that "no one is above the law." But there is a countervailing principle at play here that is equally important -- namely that the results of an election should not determine who is to be prosecuted. These principles inevitably clash when the winners of a presidential election investigate and prosecute the losers, even if the winners honestly believe that the losers committed "genuine crimes" rather than having pursued merely "bad policies."

It's not the results of an election that could determine who is prosecuted. It's the reslts of an election that could -- in a dreamy optimistic fantasy anyway -- determine whether laws are enforced. The Justice Department is right now a branch of a political party, hiring and firing on that basis, and - yes - prosecuting on that basis. Any future president must undo that, and must prosecute openly criminal predecessors, regardless of party. But rather than asking McCain to make that commitment, you choose to ask Obama NOT to. Which side of the law are you on? I repeat: Bush is not a candidate this year. He cannot win or lose. Your acceptance of the idea that party loyalty must supercede all else, including both the rule of law and the significance of elections, that it must go completely unquestioned, just like your fantasies about the utility of torture, is the root of the difficulty here.

Under our particular system of government, it is nearly impossible for a winning administration to prosecute those it defeated without it being perceived, quite understandably, as "a partisan witch hunt." This is because the attorney general of the United States, the official who a President Obama would ask to review his predecessors' actions, plays two roles simultaneously -- that of political adviser to the president, and that of chief law enforcement officer of the United States.

The attorney general need not, should not, must not play those roles. An attorney general was forced out of office last summer for having done so, and his successor would have been too had the Congress not realized that it was making itself look foolish by replacing and then punishing the subordinates of a dictator to whom it had granted immunity. But have we heard you advocate impeachment? Have we even heard you urge Republicans to begin a bipartisan impeachment effort? Of course not.

In many other countries, these conflicting roles are performed by different officials. For example, in England, the minister of justice is a political adviser to the prime minister, but he plays no role in investigating and prosecuting crimes. That sensitive job is left to the director of public prosecution, who is nonpartisan. The same is true in Israel, where the minister of justice is a political adviser to the prime minister and the attorney general is the nonpartisan chief law enforcement official. (The attorney general of Israel will soon decide whether to prosecute Prime Minister Ehud Olmert on alleged corruption charges.)

Our attorney general's function is to enforce the law. In fact that is our president's function. If either of them does not, they must be impeached by the people's representatives. You're blaming a part of the system that isn't broken and which fixing wouldn't guarantee any improvement. If you believe parties have too much power, restrict their funding, open up debates and ballot access, provide free air time to all candidates. If factions have become the threat the founders warned of, then deal with it. Don't complain that the attorney general is appointed by a partisan. Your op-ed was appointed by a partisan too.

It is because our system allocates these two incompatible roles to a single public official -- the attorney general -- that we have, in the past, seen the need to appoint "independent counsel" or "special prosecutors" to investigate political crimes. In England, Israel and other nations that divide these responsibilities, there is no need for these troublesome contrivances, because the normal prosecutors are already "independent" of partisan pressures.

Congress could do that now if it had the nerve and the decency. Obama or McCain could do it if they had the nerve and the decency. You could advocate for it now if you had ...

We simply cannot trust a politically appointed and partisan attorney general of either party to investigate his political predecessors in a manner that is both fair in fact and in appearance. Nor would the appointment of "independent" or "special" counsel solve the structural problems inherent in our system. These ersatz functionaries bring problems of their own to the criminal justice process, as evidenced by the questionable investigations that targeted President Bill Clinton, vice presidential chief-of-staff Lewis "Scooter" Libby (full disclosure: I consulted with both of them, without fee, about their cases) and others over the past decades.

Newsflash: The investigation didn't target Libby. Libby obstructed the investigation. And Bush commuted his sentence. Both James Madison and George Mason believed we needed impeachment for just such an abuse of the pardon power. But we ain't seen nothing yet in that regard. Wait for January.

The real question is whether investigating one's political opponents poses too great a risk of criminalizing policy differences -- especially when these differences are highly emotional and contentious, as they are with regard to Iraq, terrorism and the like. The fear of being criminally prosecuted by one's political adversaries has a chilling effect on creative policy making and implementation.

If you were to prosecute for, say, open violation of FISA, you'd be addressing a policy, but an illegal one. And no magical force would compel you to also prosecute a legal policy, and if you did the innocent party would, we can expect, be acquitted.

Noam Chomsky -- the MIT professor of linguistics who has become a sort of guru to hard-left America bashers -- typically overstated his point when he asserted that "if the Nuremberg laws were applied, then every postwar American president would have been hanged." Among the crimes committed by American presidents, according to Mr. Chomsky, were the counterinsurgency campaign in Greece (Truman), the overthrow of the Guatemala's government (Eisenhower), the Bay of Pigs (Kennedy), the Vietnam War (Johnson), the invasion of Cambodia (Nixon), the attack against East Timor (Ford), the increase in Indonesian atrocities (Carter), support for the Israeli invasion of Lebanon (Reagan) and on and on to the current administration.

So we've developed an established pardon of allowing ever worsening criminal activity, and your argument for allowing it to continue and grow even more extreme and blatant is ... just that, the pattern?

For those hard-left Democrats who have been pressing their candidates for a promise to prosecute, the list of crimes allegedly committed by the Bush-Cheney administration grows longer and thinner every day.

This list?
http://pubrecord.org/docs/vega/kucinich-bush-articles-of-impeachment-violations.pdf

A politically appointed prosecutor, imbued with partisan zeal, could find technical violations of the criminal law in some of the envelope-pushing policies of virtually every administration. One does not have to be as ruthless as Laventri Beria -- who infamously assured his boss Joseph Stalin "show me the man and I'll find you the crime" -- to come up with "a basis upon which you can pursue someone for a criminal violation" (as Mr. Biden put it).

So, you agree with Chomsky. So do I. But the important point you're avoiding here is that Bush and Cheney have outdone all of their predecessors combined, and you are well aware of it, having publicly cheered for some of it.

Even the most well-intentioned and honorable partisans may see "genuine crimes" on the part of their political adversaries, where a more objective prosecutor would see nothing more than "really bad policies." Most "political" crimes are matters of degree, hinging on "mens rea," the mental state of the alleged perpetrator. The criminal law is a blunderbuss, not a scalpel, and in the hands of a partisan prosecutor it is too blunt an instrument to distinguish "genuine crimes" from "really bad policies" on the part of defeated political enemies.

You proposed the partisan witch hunt as the only possible prosecution. It isn't. And were it, avoiding it would certainly NOT be just as important as upholding the rule of law.

Our constitutional system of checks and balances provides numerous mechanisms for dealing with "really bad policies," even those that may be seen by some as bordering on criminal. Congress may investigate, expose and legislate, but it has no authority to prosecute. In extreme cases, impeachment is available. Prosecution should be reserved for the extremely rare situation where the criminal act and mens rea are so apparent to everyone that no reasonable person would suspect partisanship. The best remedy in other cases is to campaign against and defeat those who supported the bad policies.

Well, let's see, a majority of Americans say Bush lied us into an unnecessary aggressive war. How's that work for you?

That is among the important reasons why I will vote for the Obama-Biden ticket, and that is also why I will try to persuade them, if they win, not to conduct criminal investigations of their defeated opponents.

Nobody has proposed prosecuting McCain or Palin.

Mr. Dershowitz, a professor of law at Harvard, is the author, most recently, of "The Case Against Israel's Enemies: Exposing Jimmy Carter and Others Who Stand in the Way of Peace" out this month by Wiley.

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"CYA" Dershowitz - "Cover Your Ass" . . .;-)

Why is this Israeli 5th Columist protecting BushCo???

Connect the dotz and see the pattern, kidz . . .;-)

1. Prosecution of George W. Bush for "high Crimes and Misdemeanors" as outlined in Article II-Section 4 of the U.S. Constitution would inevitably lead to:
a. September 11, 2001
b. the 2000 and 2004 Elections

2. Any REAL investigation into September 11, 2001 (like the one WE THE PEOPLE and THE WORLD have conducted over the past 7 years) will lead straight to Israel's MOSSAD as the orchestrator of this "Through Deception You Shall Make War" False Flag operation with the "AY-RABs" as their Patsies . . .

3. Once that can of worms is opened, the FBI "round-up" of Israeli "spies" that was occuring before BushCo seized power in 2000 and stopped it would be re-opened. This would entail the suspension of the federal "gag orders" imposed on U.S. Citizens like Sibel Edmonds, Valerie Plame, former FBI Agent Robert Hanssen, etc. and they would be allowed to testify.

4. At this point, the Zionist coup d'etat "deal" between BushCo, Israel, and the UK would be outlined as starting with Netanyahu's "Greater Israel Doctrine", which was then morphed into the Paul Wolfowitz Doctrine, which became the BushCo "Project For A New American Century" or PNAC Doctrine with it's Military Industrial Complex corollary plan of "Full Spectrum Dominance" . .. which we know all know as the "Bush Doctrine" . . even little Sarah Palin . . .;-)

4. Then a full investigation would be launched into how the NSA working ILLEGALLY under General Michael "4th Amendment" Hayden with the American TelCos and turned the Echelon software system designed by Booz, Allen, Hamilton to "data mine", "profile", and "Wire-tap" all potential threats to their success and "neutralize" these American Citizens like the fired DOJ Attorneys . . .and little ol' Communications Engineer and up and coming political rival, yours truly . .. ;-)

. . .while giving Israeli "Firewall Security" companies "back door" access to our entire communications infra-structure by a compromised CALEA (Communications Assistance For Law Enforcement Act of 1994) technical specification requirement . ..

. . .which, besides violating people's 4th Amendment Rights, our American business/technology secrets, etc. . . allowed all that Afghani heroin and Israeli heroin-laced Ecstasy to flow easily into OUR country to OUR kidz since these Zionist drug dealers/5th Columnists were always one step ahead of the DEA . .. because they were listening to the DEA on a compromised secure communications system . . .

5. Once the reality of what has been done to them by these traitors to the U.S. Constitution, the PEOPLE of this Great Republic will DEMAND that these WAR CRIMINALS all be prosecuted to the FULL EXTENT OF THE LAW . . .

. . .and under the Patriot Acts and the Military Commissions Act . . . all these "Israel Firsters" Terrorists, Assassins, Spies, Saboteurs, Propogandists, Drug Dealers, AIPAC Political Thugs, and 5th Columnists like Rupert "War Criminal" Murdoch . .. and good ol' Mr. Dershowitz are going to see the type of "JUSTICE" they so richly deserve . . .;-)

This ol' fool from North Cackilacki is amazed that Mr. Dershowitz hasn't already fled to Israel like those "5 Dancing Israelis from 9/11" that Israeli Citizen Michael Chertoff released and smuggled out after they had been arrested on 9/11 with explosives and lots of cash . . .;-)

. . and Mr. Dershowitz has the damn gall to throw Monkey-Shit at President Jimmy Carter . . .

I guess that's "chutzpah" for you, kidz . . .;-)

"Little darling,
I feel that ice is slowly melting
Little darling,
It seems like years since it's been clear
Here comes the sun, here comes the sun,
and I say it's all right
It's all right"
- Here Comes The Sun by The Beatles

peace.

DERSHOWITZ whole point seems to me, to be nothing but right wing spin. He seems to advoid addressing certain unrefutuble facts that do actually support a criminal trial for the president, vice president, as well as others.
Mr frederick C. BL sir, what you wrote above was an outstanding counter attack.

You nailed it, brother Scott Allen . . "Right Wing Spin" . . ;-)

Of course, the "punch line" here that we older kidz get that may not be quite so obvious to you younger kidz . . . is that we remember back in the day when Mr. Dershowitz was our liberal "hero" of the LEFT!!!! . . .;-)

We now sadly realize that we've been "played" all along . . .to the likes of Dershowitz, we were all just "useful idiots" . . . and "expendable idiots" for a treasonous Zionist agenda. . .

Like the story of the helpful but naive fox and the scorpion trying to cross the river . . . the scorpion "promises" that it won't sting the fox and it appears so sincere . . . and of course, the fox really wants to believe that the scorpion can change it's nature (Modus Operandi) for the benefit of all the creatures in the forest. . .

. . . so like all we post World War II kidz that felt we were finally beyond the bad science of racist "Eugenics" and Social Darwinist "MASTER RACE" bullshit . . . having been fed a steady diet of "Ann Frank" and "Bad, Bad NAZI!!!" . . . the fox finally agrees to let the scorpion ride on its back while the fox swims across the river . . .

. . . but halfway across, the fox feels the sting in his back and realizes that once again, the scorpion had lied and stayed "true" to its nature . . . even though it knew that it would parish along with the fox. . ."It's my nature", says the scorpion to the fox as they both perish beneath the waves. . .

We are told that "Insanity" is doing the same thing over and over again while expecting different results . . . For 6 thousand years, various groups have peddled this flawed Copper-Age "Zionist/Luciferian" Master/Slave Centralized Static Power System societal "shadow" model to civilization after civilization . . . the results are always the same . . .

It is an unstable and unscalable model . . .and it ALWAYS crashes and burns . . . The "master curses the slave, and the slave curses the master" . . .

Kidz, you can't polish a turd . . . I don't care how much "faith" or "technology" or "cluster bombs" or "tainted vacines for the young and old" or "Propaganda" or "Shadow Espionage" you throw at it. . .it's still a TURD!!!

Of course, my Zionist brothers and sisters don't want to hear that . . . just like my Masonic Brothers did not want to hear me point out the flaws in Albert Pike's great "Morals and Dogma" model that was going to "fix America" in the shadows by stealth and "sin". . to the point they forbade me from speaking . . .

. . .Well, they tried anyway . . .after all, it is a good day to die . . . not to mention having your tongue ripped out by its roots, your body torn in twain and all those other mean, nasty, and ugly things they said they'd do to this ol' fool from North Cackilacki if I ever dared tell you kidz what was going on . ..behind the curtain of OZ, Great and Powerful . .. ;-)

...Alas, I guess there is no hope for the Widow's Son . . .

. . . except you rowdy kidz that are coming together now by the MILLIONS . . . WORLDWIDE. . . to expose this criminal Shadow Cabal, to restore World Peace and Justice, and to restore this Great Republic to the RULE OF LAW by playing by the Game Rules that our enlightened founders laid out as the NEW WORLD SOLUTION . . . A Dynamic Peer-To-Peer Distributed-Power system that operates OPENLY in the LIGHT for ALL to see with full CHECKS AND BALANCES OF POWER . . .

. . . WHERE ALL MEN (PEOPLE) ARE CREATED EQUAL!!!!

And that starts with the IMPEACHMENT of BushCo . . .

. . . and the round-up and trial of this Zionist 5th Column!!! I look forward to Mr. Dershowitz's day in court. . .;-)

"You got a lotta nerve
To say you are my friend
When I was down
You just stood there grinning
You got a lotta nerve
To say you got a helping hand to lend
You just want to be on
The side that's winning
You say I let you down
You know it's not like that
If you're so hurt
Why then don't you show it"
- Positively 4th Street by Bob Dylan

peace.

And that insanity you refer to has once again reared it ugly head in yet another attempt to envelope the civilized world and I wonder, when you consider, that for every attempt that was ever made, by those past villianns, that had to be countered with violent force, are we just advoiding the inevitible battle that must surly be fought, like all the other's that were fought, to end this darkness, by hopeing against hope for peacefull solution? Because, to me anyhow, it seems that our desire to pursue the peacefull remedy is leading us down to the failsafe point, and once crossed, then, I fear, the battle I refer to will be futile. I see eight years of faillure in that peacefull pursuit and although a little more investment in time, to that end, is worthy, yet, the enevitible reality of this failure will certainly have to be faced, eventually.

The issue is criminality and treason in the United States by George W Bush.

Bush is a traitor. We know this. You cannot blame the Mossad for Bush's treason.

When I read crap like that, it makes me wonder if you really want to bring Bush to justice, or if you just want to rail against Israel.

Derschowitz is an asshole, and Israeli foreign policy sucks. That's no reason to be distracted from Bush's treason.

Perhaps Derschowitz would find it acceptable for us to use some "aggressive interrogation techniques" (torture) to get Bush to confess for his complicity in 9/11. That would solve a lot of problems.

After that, you guys could let go of your paranoid fantasies about the Mossad and get on with your lives.

But just hear me on one thing - you will get nowhere by weaving Israeli foreign policy, paranoid conspiracy theories about the Mossad and 9/11 and then trying to prosecute Bush.

Do you see how that fails? You must focus on Bush and Cheney's obvious treason and avoid conspiracy theory.

but since you haven't been around much I will reintroduce on of my mantras - There are conspiracies and there are theories. The two words ought not be used in the same sentence. By using them together, one, on purpose or not, belittles anything one is commenting on or questioning. Not my original thought, but I have looked into the the beginnings of the phrase and I am 100% behind the abolishment of the term.

Yes, now we most focus on Bush and Cheney's obvious treason. Peace.

Let me tell you where "we" (and I don't remember seeing you around here that often) have gotton going after Bush and Cheney so far... nowhere. zip. zilch. nada. nothing. They laugh at us, and they commit more crimes, they push for lessening of FBI regulations after something so blatent as the Dr. Ivins frame up...and the congress WILL give it to them!
Obama and the rest of the "liberal" congress are chomping at the bit to send troops to Georgia to protect that little "democracy" over there, in the name of Freedom!
What about that contempt charge for Rove? Harriot Myers been around? And what is the congress doing? What is the Justice Department doing? nothing. zip.zilch.nada.
Do you know why genius? Because the more convoluted the argument for the criminal prosecution is, the easier it is for the MSM to dismiss it, and the sooner the Average American forgets it. That's why.
And what do you want to do? Charge Bush with treason and murder because he sent troop to Iraq? Prove that was illegal when the congress gave the the authorization to do it. Go ahead. hell, even Bugliosi, or what ever his name is says that is a BIG sticking point.. But you go ahead and try to weave some logic around it, and see if they don't paint you as a bitter left-wing zealot trying to get political revenge. Because they will, and you know it.
The other option is to bring charges through a "prosecuter" but Vincent again states the OBVIOUS problem with that being the State AGs can squash it and so can the USAG, Mukasey... so, where is that going to go? nowhere. zip. zilch. nada. Total waste of time.
And that is a fact.

Now, what is NOT a waste of time so far? Well, we know that there are engineers and architects and scientists and physists that have signed on to the NIST report about how those buildings came down as being a farse. Imposible. Not just unlikely but cannot happen, no way nohow. period.
Those buildings were demoed... there is Thermate residue found in the dust...and that, genius, means someone knew it was going to happen, and that genius, means someone allowed it to happen, and that genius, is TREASON.

get it? The FBI story about Ivins is falling apart...

NIST's story about Building 7 "the first time ever miracle" theory...

and we all know that even the chairs of the 9/11 Commission Report have said that they were lied to and had important facts hidden from them by the government.

The ONLY way to end this illegal regime is ... 9/11. It is the cornerstone of their plan, and it is the weakest link in it.

As long as gatekeepers like you try to keep real progressives from looking at the realities of 9/11, then yes, nothing will happen. As long as Gatekeepers like you suggest these are 'paranoid conspiracy theories" then maybe, Bush and Cheney will be able to slip away into the night with no problems.

But you cannot tell me that on 9/11 some 19 cavedwellers beat the single superpower in the world and it's one trillion dollar defense system, 4 out of 4 times, without help, and you cannot argue with engineers, architects, and scientists and tell me those buildings fell at free-fall speed with out assistance. if you do, you are wasting my time, and everyone elses here.

Because you see, we are smarter than that. had you been around before, you would already know that.

Iraq War was born in Israeli think tank IASPS : "Clean Break". You are coming across as naive at best, amateurish at worst. Do your homework.

http://www.ihr.org/leaflets/iraqwar.shtml

What about the fire chief and about 500 firefighters testimony that they heard explosives in series around the buildings of the WTC? They were threathened with loss of their jobs and sworn to silence about what they witnessed.The evidence is there ,only to be truly investigated. Also, an Italian film on 9/11, being shown in Russia and banned here in the USA, futher argues for an inside job on the part of our corrupt government.

and you can see it here on my site...

http://willyloman.wordpress.com/2008/09/11/zeroan-investigation-into-911/

It's a good film I am glad you mentioned it.

Dershowitz's arguments seem so weak and contrived, one is led to the conclusion he has been asked to "gin up" some positive material for the public's consumption by a friend of Cheney's. His heart's not in it but it's a friend of a friend so what can you do? That seems the level of effort here. It's not Dershowit's "A" argument stuff. An effort like that would cost money..

If only members of the President's own party can call for his impeachment then he is, for all intents and purposes, above the law. People love a dictator as long as he agrees with them.

It's hard to believe that Alan Dershkowitz, after all his years as an attorney, would fail to recognize the importance of holding criminals accountable for their actions. Would he argue similarly against the prosecution of rapists, mass murderers, or terrorists because criminal prosecution is barbaric "revenge seeking"? The idea is completely absurd.

What do you expect from one of those that defended O.J.? Maybe he wants to be the Bush/Cheney defense attorney in the future.
maceye

Let us put Mr. Dershowitz's argument in the proper context of what the statement "no man is above the law" means. If I, Jane Doe, were to be faced with the possible prosecution of false imprisonment, torture and attempted murder, how much weight would my use of your argument carry for me. If I claimed I were being wrongfully accused because "the prosecutor was out to get me" I would be laughed at. I would be told that the nature of these accusations were so vital to the public good that justice would demand I answer to these charges. If there were enough evidence presented of my guilt and/or complicity, I would be told the interest of deterrence would far outweigh the counter-argument of punishment. My goodness, are you going to propose a defense of being "framed" next?

P. Welch:
There can be only one conclusion to anyone supporting Bush & Cheney, and that is that they are Guilty as well.
The US Constitution clearly states this.
Wold renowned Professors of Constitutional law have stated this on MSNBC, and in other law journals.

I do oppose prosecuting these War Criminals in the USA where they can buy there way out of murder, treason, genocide, etc.
These War Criminals must be prosecuted in Europe at the ICC, Nuremburg Tribunal, Brussels Tribunal, Geneva Tribunal, BUT:: Never in the USA!!

The Chief Prosecutor at the ICC & Nuremburg told me via email that they would be pleased to prosecute these War Criminals, and it only takes an Senator or Congressman ntro file the documents to begin the process for International Arrest Warrants, and Trial in one of these courts.

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